Question for pilots

[PatW]

Today, a small single engine plane flew very near our house and very low! He was low enough that I saw the pilot. I was upstairs on our deck and I didn't even have to raise my head to see the plane. How low are these planes allowed to be flying over the island? My husbands swears that several times, the planes have left tire marks on our roof! This happens 2 or 3 times a week. One day I saw a plane descending below the trees on the beach, he disappeared and apparently flew low in front of Nippers and then he climbed back up and came back around for a buzz of the harbour. I got the N number of the plane today.

[Jerry S]

We saw it too Pat!! Jerry, was saying "What the h*ll"??!!

[Red Jacket]

Pat:
Get the wing or tail numbers from the aircraft and send them to me along with the date nd timne of the overflight. Also type of aircreft, ie single or twin engine hight or low wing etc. color etc.

I will feed them to the American FAA and the pilot will be grounded.

t.

[Flpilot5]

LOL Firt of all I have to say I have done that many of times in the bahamas.... Of course when no one is on board and its just me on board...

Its a blast, its a lot of fun and its a rush...... :) I miss that part of the flying..flying low and fast over the pretty blue water....

As far as the getting the Tail # of the airplane and getting the pilot in trouble....... Your in the Bahamas and the FAA works for the United States

GOOD LUCK!! Like the Bahamas govt. is going to do anything

just wave at the pilot when he/she flies by and enjoy it :)

[It'lldo]

I sure wouldn't like it. In fact I would be down right pissed-TOO DANGEROUS

[PatW]

Flying over the water is one thing but flying over the settlement as low as some of these planes are flying is ridiculous!



LOL Firt of all I have to say I have done that many of times in the bahamas.... Of course when no one is on board and its just me on board...

Its a blast, its a lot of fun and its a rush...... :) I miss that part of the flying..flying low and fast over the pretty blue water....

As far as the getting the Tail # of the airplane and getting the pilot in trouble....... Your in the Bahamas and the FAA works for the United States

GOOD LUCK!! Like the Bahamas govt. is going to do anything

just wave at the pilot when he/she flies by and enjoy it :)

[Tom R.]

The Bahamas has a bloody history of private pilots killing themselves doing stunts like that. Often times they take others with them. This type of flying is illegal. In many cases the pilots are exceding their skill level. Just because you own your airplane doesnt mean your a good pilot. The judgement of individuals who choose to do these things I would call into serious question.

I am a former fighter pilot with the USMC and Royal Navy and totally understand the excitement of getting low and fast. I have flown many airshows as a Harrier air display pilot and appreciate the rush. I also understand the level of skill and planning and practice it takes to make it as safe as possible. This type of flying, low and fast near people is dangerous even in the best of circumstances. Many accidents have happened even with highly trained military pilots during carfully planned airshows.

Those who attend airshows know what they are about to see. Those sitting on the deck at nippers who suddenly get a face full of cessna 310 do not. I know some folks who were buzzed one time and were startled and injured themselves as a result. One time many years ago I saw a private 727 buzz the marina and beach at Treasure Cay and it scared many people, some children were crying. It sure looked cool to me but it was dangerous and stupid.

I would encourage all you folks with aircraft who like to buzz the Abacos to take it easy just in case there is someone there who doesnt appreciate it as much as you do. Tom R. GTC

[PatW]

You are so right about it scaring some people. There is a woman who works at Nippers who gets deathly afraid when one of these pilots does an almost "touch and go" on the Nippers beach. She has been known to drop trays of food and go home!


The Bahamas has a bloody history of private pilots killing themselves doing stunts like that. Often times they take others with them. This type of flying is illegal. In many cases the pilots are exceding their skill level. Just because you own your airplane doesnt mean your a good pilot. The judgement of individuals who choose to do these things I would call into serious question.

I am a former fighter pilot with the USMC and Royal Navy and totally understand the excitement of getting low and fast. I have flown many airshows as a Harrier air display pilot and appreciate the rush. I also understand the level of skill and planning and practice it takes to make it as safe as possible. This type of flying, low and fast near people is dangerous even in the best of circumstances. Many accidents have happened even with highly trained military pilots during carfully planned airshows.

Those who attend airshows know what they are about to see. Those sitting on the deck at nippers who suddenly get a face full of cessna 310 do not. I know some folks who were buzzed one time and were startled and injured themselves as a result. One time many years ago I saw a private 727 buzz the marina and beach at Treasure Cay and it scared many people, some children were crying. It sure looked cool to me but it was dangerous and stupid.

I would encourage all you folks with aircraft who like to buzz the Abacos to take it easy just in case there is someone there who doesnt appreciate it as much as you do. Tom R. GTC

[wbruce95]

One of the many good examples of selfishness, if something goes wrong the pilot would expect the ultimate in a rescue endeavour, often at great peril to rescue personnel.

[Fletcher]

The Miami Sectional Aeronautical Chart states " Flying below 2000 ft over Abaco Island is restricted". The U.S. mimimum safe altitude: Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2000 feet of the aircraft. Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.

It is a fact that people without the proper training and experience get killed trying to fly at low altitudes. Should you loose the engine(s) you are going to get wet. There have been many complaints about "buzzing" especially at Boat Harbour which is not helping the general aviation community. If the aircraft is U.S. registered the FAA has an interest no matter what country you may be in. On the flip side, keep in mind there is an airport on Scotland Key. It would not be unuasual to see someone low and slow on the south end of Guana.

[floridacargocat]

If this N-registered aircraft is owned by a US citizen or entity (residing in the US), the FAA would be the proper address. There is another way. The insurance company for this airplane might be interested too. Just my 2 cents. I would also inquire with the airports in MHH and TCB for further information, as this aircraft may have entered via these 2 ports of entry.
BTW, N-registered aircraft are subject to US jurisdiction, wherever they are. Any FAA inspector (duly authorized to conduct his business in a foreign state) can conduct an inspection in a foreign country and take the necessary administrative action in case of non-compliance.
From a practical point of view, aircraft operations below the approved safety altitudes diminish safety margins to the point of not having any safety margin any more. For these buzzings, it just needs a sudden wind gust, and the aircraft can get destabilized in a serious way, and might enter a one-way direction and path for "6 feet under" (not only for the pilot). Furthermore it leads to a negative perception of General Aviation pilots, who comply with rules.
What is the purpose of this buzzing? To get an adrenalin shot? It might provoke some very unexpected reactions at an unexpected time by someone you do not want to meet.

[Flpilot5]

Ahhhh sorry for the misunderstanding


it is one thing to be flying over the blue water but flying over houses and over a residential area....thats a no no

strictly says in the FAR book (pilot bible) have to be 500 feet when flying over a sparsely populated area or 500 feet from the highest obstacle (sailboat for example)

Lowest altitude I went was 200 feet because heard stories from my aviation professors that if you do not have a Radar Altimeter on board, should not go lower than 200 feet or else. :)

Sorry again for the confusion! Of course any pilot who is acting like a "cowboy" should be looked into.

Try getting having a camera near by when the plane goes by so you have some prrof how low the pilot has been flying.

Good Luck

[Lsh1482]

LOL Firt of all I have to say I have done that many of times in the bahamas.... Of course when no one is on board and its just me on board...

Its a blast, its a lot of fun and its a rush...... :) I miss that part of the flying..flying low and fast over the pretty blue water....

As far as the getting the Tail # of the airplane and getting the pilot in trouble....... Your in the Bahamas and the FAA works for the United States

GOOD LUCK!! Like the Bahamas govt. is going to do anything

just wave at the pilot when he/she flies by and enjoy it :)
FLPilot - Hope you do it when we're there - it sounds cool! It's neat at Princess Juliana in St. Maartin.

[Flpilot5]

Ahhh I wish I still could do it....but I moved onto bigger and faster airplanes since flying the mighty Cessna 402

While working for Calypso, after I dropped off my passengers in West Palm Beach and I had to reposition the airplane to Ft. Lauderdale, I would fly along the beach over the water (again no one on board) and that was always a blast.

Also dropping off my passengers in Treasure Cay and then flying to Marsh to pick up my passengers to fly back. I would fly along the beaches and see people wave at me so I would rock my wings to wave at everyone in the water.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhh the memories

By The Way..I think that Air France plane is a little bit too low :)

What airport is that?

[L0NG L00K 2]

I feel the recomended 500 ft is low, not only for safety, but the people who live there do not deserve the excessive noise!

[big fish]

Here is another view of the same airport in St Maarten. Amazing that it is a legitimate flight pattern for an airport. I don't think I would want it over my house.

Bruce

[gatorman71]

You would hope that most pilots, unlike flpilot5, who go to the trouble to earn their ratings, etc., would have a better understanding of FAA rules/regulations. It is frightening to think that his aviator is flying people for hire and doesn't even understand the rules which govern the use of his airman's certificate. The Bahamas does have a bloody history of idiots piloting small planes and killing themselves. Unfortunately, it seems there is always someone along for the ride who is an innocent victim.

[floridacargocat]

Being involved in the air cargo industry since 1997, I have met pilots who earned my respect, and I have seen pilots, duly certificated, who have - to put it diplomatically - extended the envelope of what happens in reality. I do remember one pilot, whose biggest fun was to take off out from Lantana runway 15, and fly over the bridgeat Lantana Road not higher than 50 feet (and this Beech 18 was empty). Now everyone n the aviation community knows, that a Beech 18, as beautiful as she is is, and as nice as the sound of tis radial engines is,she is not known to be in the class of noise-abatement compliant aircraft.
Now this specific pilot is part of the lore of the pilot community and he willhave lots of stories to tell, but - as sad as it is - his behaviour indicates an attitude of "How far can we push the envelope without being caught". Unfortunately a behaviour and attitude like this will always be discussed, forgetting the thousands of pilots doing their best to comply with the myriad of aviation laws, the boss's pressure,the fear of being ramp-checked by the friendly feds "we are here to help you"
I have lost many a clients not willing to listen to reason and compliance (and I have no regrets) but I still have to meet a pilot who does not trust me. I only do my ground handling for clients, but I do it right, and I advise the flying personnel of what they can expect.
Yes, there are good pilots in the charter industry (whom a certificate holder will always recommed), ands there are pilots which are technically proficient enough to pass the checkride (given by the FAA or its Designate Examiner), whose biggest potential for improvement is when they feel unobserved. Lots of eyes are watching, and the community loves to talk.
It serves absolutely no purpose to go joyriding in an airplane, because it can go wrong even with an airplane in perfectly good shape (happened recently with a Bombardier Challenger on a repositioning flight).
There are pilots who do earn the respect of their flying customers, and there are (very) few, , where questions remain, falling back on the company. A pilot represents the company, and should do his/her utmost to do it the right way.

[JimG]

"...I have met pilots who earned my respect, and I have seen pilots, duly certificated, who have - to put it diplomatically - extended the envelope of what happens in reality.."

Yep....and I hate to admit it, but having learned to fly at a young age (20), I did some really stupid stuff in airplanes, due to an overabundance of testosterone.

I've flown under powerlines in a Cessna 172, chased antelope at 10' in a Bonanza (at 180 mph), and flown down slot canyons in a twin Commander (180-200mph).

Nowadays 24 years later....when I pull that airplane off the runway....the first thing I'm looking for is that 1000' AGL before lowering the nose to cruise climb, reducing power settings and quieting the props.

Fortunately....I learned my lessons early, without killing myself and/or others. I'm guessing these incidences ppl are complaining about have the same denominator.

[Lsh1482]

By The Way..I think that Air France plane is a little bit too low :)

What airport is that?The picture is at a beach (I don't know the name) at the end of the runway of Princess Juliana Airport in St. Maartin. I once saw an awesome picture in the February 1999 issue of Life Magazine of an aircraft flying into this airport. The write-up said that kids like to play there as the planes come in because it kicks up the sand. In 2003 we went to BVI and I planned it that we would connect through St. Maartin just so I could go to this beach. It was really cool. They have warning signs for the jet blast. The jet blast from planes taking off is just as neat as the planes coming in real low. Go here if you want to see more pics. http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views&countrysearch=Netherlands%20Antilles

Lisa

[Flpilot5]

You would hope that most pilots, unlike flpilot5, who go to the trouble to earn their ratings, etc., would have a better understanding of FAA rules/regulations. It is frightening to think that his aviator is flying people for hire and doesn't even understand the rules which govern the use of his airman's certificate. The Bahamas does have a bloody history of idiots piloting small planes and killing themselves. Unfortunately, it seems there is always someone along for the ride who is an innocent victim.
Well Sir... I guess I should go into detail further... When I 1st read this thread, I was assuming the airplane was flying at like 200 feet or so over houses but from what was said earlier, its more like leaving tire marks on the roof.

I never ever did that and I am not stupid to do that. I know the Bahamas has a bloody history. What I learned early in my aviation career that The Rules Of Aviation Have Been Written In Blood. When I use to fly to the Bahamas, (moved on) while carrying passengers I would always try and do something to make their trip enjoyable. I would tell the passengers ahead of time that on the left/right side will be flying over say guana or elbow cay...wherever.... and I would tell the passengers this so they can get their cameras out to take pictures. Passengers loved it when I did that, I never had anyone complain. By The Way..The lowest altitude you can fly with passengers onboard is 500'...just saying that since you stated I should have a better understanding of the rules/regulations. :)

While at work, I tried to have a lot of fun with my passengers b/c lets face it, after 9/11 airline travel has become more of a headache. Well flying to the Bahamas it shouldn't be right?? Well, I tried my best to make it fun. Don't get confused gatorman71, I wasn't a cowboy with passengers on the plane and I absoultely was not one with no passengers on board either.

Worked very hard (paid a lot of money too)to earn my ratings and I wouldn't throw them away on stupid cowboyish flying.

As PatW said "Flying over the water is one thing but flying over the settlement as low as some of these planes are flying is ridiculous!" its also idiotic and dangerous and should not be happening.

Sorry to rant but I had to explain myself... Enjoy The Bahamas!

[unclek]

Bahamas regs are based on US. Same distance from people or objects. Some people think because there isn't the same enforcement infrastructure in the Bahamas that they can get away with whatever at the moment. By the way to the guy who said the FAA doesn't have jurisdiction in the Bahamas....I was ramp checked at Marsh Harbour by 5 FAA officials. They checked my documents and climbed on board the aircraft and checked the plane. Everything was current so no problem. It goes beyond just pilots and planes and even goes to boaters dumping trash and developers dumping agendas. I wonder how people know what altitude a pilot is flying from their perspective on the ground. You could record the date and time and file a report but like someone else said "good luck". Someone also said to keep in mind the traffic pattern for Scotland Cay airport. Depending on the plane, that could be from Nippers to the south.

[PatW]

My house is located behind the hardware store on Guana Cay. The hardware store is directly across from the Fig Tree in the harbour. He was flying just above the telephone poles, as I said I could see the pilot. He flew past me and turned towards Orchid Bay and then I watched him head towards MH. I watched the plane climb and then make a turn towards the airport.

[floridacargocat]

Here is a link to the FSDO in Orlando http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/orl/lowfly.cfm which has given some guidance regarding what to do with low flying aircraft.
Regarding a comment, that 5 FAA officials were doing their inspections at MHH, that is definitely within the scope of their work. They do this only on N-registered aircraft.